Behind The Message: Humility in Christ

[00:00:00] Speaker A: From Westside Church in Bend, Oregon, this is behind the message. Each week we take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I'm Ben Fleming. [00:00:15] Speaker B: I'm Evan Earwicker, and we're joined today by pastor Dave Daley, our pastor of discipleship here at Westside. Hi, Dave. [00:00:21] Speaker C: Hey, guys. [00:00:22] Speaker A: The king of humility is what you were called just like 30 minutes ago. [00:00:26] Speaker C: Good. I sent that ahead to make sure that was on my chair when I walked in. So I appreciate you guys getting on. [00:00:32] Speaker A: I love that your kids call you that, too. They call you the king of humility. [00:00:35] Speaker C: Oh, man. Yeah, hang out with my kids. That's what you'll hear. [00:00:38] Speaker B: For sure. Ben, what do your kids call you? [00:00:41] Speaker A: Big fella. [00:00:42] Speaker B: Big fella. [00:00:44] Speaker C: It's the best. When Jovi rolls up. Hey, big fella. [00:00:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:00:48] Speaker A: And they've just made that the thing they call me now. So it's not even just in a certain situation or to make fun of me. It's my name. [00:00:56] Speaker B: Has it caught on? Do other hockey parents call you big fella, though? [00:00:58] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:00:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:00:59] Speaker A: I get big fella from baseball parents. Hockey parents. [00:01:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:01:02] Speaker B: Everywhere. [00:01:02] Speaker C: Good job, man. Sure, embody the nickname. Just go for it. Just 100%. [00:01:09] Speaker B: All right. So you guys both have kids in traveling sports? [00:01:15] Speaker C: Correct. [00:01:17] Speaker B: Explain this to me. I don't even comprehend the expense, the time it takes. Help me understand. [00:01:25] Speaker C: No, there is no understanding. This is a bad idea. Nothing but regret. [00:01:32] Speaker A: I can't comprehend the expense, either. I don't even look at the books. [00:01:35] Speaker B: I just. [00:01:37] Speaker C: It's whatever your kids ask for. [00:01:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:40] Speaker C: No, it's insane. My daughter has been. In the last stretch, she has been to Seattle, Phoenix, Vegas. She literally travels like a Taylor Swift concert schedule for her soccer team. And it probably costs as much as the era's tour to finance her. [00:02:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:01] Speaker A: With none of the income, either. [00:02:03] Speaker C: Zero income. [00:02:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:02:05] Speaker A: Joel, a nine year old did. San Jose, La, Santa Rosa, Seattle, McCall, Sun Valley, Portland. For hockey this year. [00:02:16] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:02:16] Speaker A: Vegas, next year. [00:02:17] Speaker C: At nine years old. [00:02:18] Speaker B: At nine? [00:02:19] Speaker C: Yeah. Totally. [00:02:20] Speaker A: Ludicrous. [00:02:21] Speaker C: Smart move. [00:02:21] Speaker B: At what age do you say? Oh, they're not going to make it further than high school or they're not going to make it further than college. So this is all for nothing as far as the financial. [00:02:33] Speaker C: What about the time my kid is right now? [00:02:38] Speaker B: Ben's still holding on to hook? Come on, Joel. I am. [00:02:40] Speaker A: I made him sign a contract that I need at least a college scholarship. [00:02:43] Speaker C: Out of this stuff. Smart. Yeah. A year ago, she had a daughter, had a college showcase tournament in Las Vegas to which she said, I think. I'm not interested. [00:02:56] Speaker B: Oh, no. Yeah. [00:03:00] Speaker A: I'm still getting Joel to go hardcore. He thinks he's gonna be a pro, which helps. [00:03:03] Speaker C: I think Joel's gonna be a pro. [00:03:04] Speaker A: It's nice, though. [00:03:05] Speaker C: Let's ride that way. [00:03:06] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. That's right. He is not necessarily the master of humility, which is probably good for the athletic piece of it. [00:03:15] Speaker C: That's a good segue. Oh, my gosh. You're good. [00:03:18] Speaker A: You're so good. The bullet, the hat. The hat sitting high on the head. It's a whole bit. [00:03:24] Speaker B: Yep. He's the type of kid that excluded kids like me growing up. [00:03:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I've noticed your trick. [00:03:30] Speaker B: But he is a sweetheart, so he is. [00:03:32] Speaker A: He's very sweet. [00:03:32] Speaker C: Who's laughing now? Senior pastor. He's very sweet. [00:03:34] Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Any nine year old I can set it up to now, it's not even hard. [00:03:42] Speaker A: Philippians, week three. Here we go. [00:03:44] Speaker C: Okay. Yeah. [00:03:44] Speaker B: Right. [00:03:45] Speaker A: That's a perfect lead into this whole thing. [00:03:47] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:03:47] Speaker A: And the reason I brought up the master humility in the first place was because, of course, week three is about humility. So I like this question that you ask inside of the content that we're pushing out to groups this week, and our staff has gotten a look see. The first question, the first line is, if you say you're humble, are you actually humble? Which speaks to the complexity of humility in general. Right. You're seeking after and trying to achieve humility, I think, is the way that you could put it. And it seems like when we achieve anything, it would create pride or something like that. So what is it about humility that makes it such a funky, complex, interesting thing to grasp? [00:04:34] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, especially in our culture, humility is this grasping at straws idea. I think because we venerate, we make heroes, we make movies about the humble while not embodying any of those characteristics. Right. So, like, the humble warrior, humble savior idea, who ends up being, you know, thor with a hammer that crushes everyone. So, yeah, CS Lewis said that humility is not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less. So it's actually this shift in our energy, our mental focus that in our western culture, we have definitely put the self at the center of all things. And so humility is like one more of our becoming my best self concepts. And I think Louis would challenge that and say, even going down that road to, you know, dial down your pride or your outwardly seen charisma or whatever, you're still overly centering yourself as the piece of the story. And so, yeah, that's counter to so much of, like, what we see now. So, virtue signaling is humility, you know, online or, like, look, and I'm doing the service project, and I've just blasted Instagram with all of my photos and videos of this amazing thing I've done. Like, to not be known is incomprehensible, but there's a part of humility that's actually, like, we have to extract the self out of the center of it. [00:06:32] Speaker B: Do you guys remember the movie the last samurai with Tom Cruise? [00:06:36] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, totally. [00:06:37] Speaker B: Where it's this down and out american guy. I'm hoping I don't ruin it for anyone who's about to watch this. [00:06:44] Speaker C: Listen, this is eighties. It's been around. I mean, it's on them. [00:06:48] Speaker B: At least 20 years old, but gets to Japan, is down and out, has to kick his addictions, and ends up being the savior of the samurai in Japan as Tom Cruise. Who else would save the samurai? And I think at the end, again, spoiler alert, he's the last samurai standing. That's where the title comes from, right? And it's such a comical take on humility, right, that I'm so down and out, but one day I will rise and I will be the hero. And what we have in the Philippians two, which is this Christ poem that says, have the same attitude of Christ Jesus, and it flies in the face of this, like, just give me my shot and everyone will know how great I am. Although there's greatness baked into this in the end. So it's kind of an interesting challenge. We have to follow Jesus in humility because there's glory attached to the end of it. And that's kind of almost the last samurai vibe. So how do you say, no, I want to walk in humility. That's actual humility and not this, like. And I'll be the last one standing. [00:08:02] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, I think because in the end, the glory is his glory. It's not our glory. Right. And so this, uh. Can we read the Christ poem? Is that. Can we do that real quick, please? [00:08:13] Speaker A: No, just kidding. [00:08:16] Speaker C: And let me nerd out. Can I. I'm just gonna nerd out for a second because, um, we're in the book of Philippians. We're in this for six weeks. Um, groups are going through the study each week, but this is the centerpiece. Like, this is the whole letter that Paul writes to the church in Philippi is completely hinging on this poem. And he does that on purpose. There's a whole term for this of how jewish writings work. That's like a pyramid, where this is the peak of the pyramid and everything builds to it and then works off from it. So I think we should read it because it's kind of the whole point of what Paul's writing. So let me do it. [00:08:57] Speaker B: Go. [00:08:57] Speaker C: Okay, here we go. As Philippians 2511, it says, in your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus, who, being in very nature, God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage. Rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant. Being made in human likeness and being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. Therefore, God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every other name, that at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow in heaven and on earth, and under the earth. And every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the father. So that is that ending line, to the glory of God the father. And even the language that Paul is using through this. It is this going down, this humility, this being made in the image of a servant, of a man. It's this coming downness that then has exalted language in the crucifixion. So it's this dying servanthood, setting aside his advantages of being God and then getting exalted for that, for the glory of the father. And that's really important language. When we're thinking about, like, how do we embody this type of humility in our culture? The ones we watch walk down the road of loss, or walk down the road of being humiliated or being pushed out or being canceled, or whatever the language you want to use, we would say, well, that's a victim, you know, or that person. They're. I'm trying to think of, like, a celebrity who's walked away from, this is. This is dumb, but I think of, like, Rick Moranis. Do you, anybody? [00:11:11] Speaker B: Every day. Every day. [00:11:13] Speaker A: Rick Moranis was, like, at the height. [00:11:15] Speaker C: Of his powers, right, in comedy, and he just disappears. Like, he just steps away. And I think if I remember, it was, like, family thing and his wife had cancer or something, and he literally just disappeared. And the writings I've heard about it is like, wow, he really gave up a lot to step into this dad mode, and then he's irrelevant now. And I think in the economy of God, that is like a total mess of what's happening here. That this lowliness, this sacrifice of what seems to be our glory, actually exalts the things that God gets glorified most in. And that's like, as with everything with Jesus, it is an upside down kingdom. It totally turns things around. [00:12:05] Speaker B: And if humility is becoming smaller, it really fits because he shrunk the kids. [00:12:14] Speaker A: That was great. You're talking first. [00:12:18] Speaker B: Come on. I had to go there. [00:12:20] Speaker C: Totally classic. [00:12:22] Speaker A: What else was he in? He was in some other good stuff at the time, too. Place. [00:12:26] Speaker B: How do you think Paul is using this to kind of respond to the first century impression of this new religious sect that is lifting up this messiah, this crucified, humiliated Messiah, which would have been absurd to everybody. How does this push back against that, you think? [00:12:46] Speaker C: Yeah, no, you're totally right, because he's messing with kingdom language. He's talking, like, exalted in this context, would have than the emperor. Right. The roman emperor, who is always higher than anyone else in a public space, who is seen as a God, who's crowned with divinity. That's exaltation. And Jesus walks a road that unwinds all of that. Like his crown is a crown of thorns, and his exaltation on the cross above everyone is a torturer. Public torture and shaming. And so he is intentionally high. Paul is intentionally highlighting this. And maybe you guys already talked about this, but in Philippi, this is a. It's a retirement community for roman military. Did you guys already talk about this in week one at all? Okay, so Philippi is a. It's, like, leisure village. It's like a developed community specifically for roman generals and officers in retirement to go have a good life. [00:13:54] Speaker B: It's Boca. [00:13:55] Speaker C: It's Boca. It's Boca, baby. [00:13:57] Speaker A: So much shuffleboard in Philippi. [00:13:59] Speaker C: Exactly. No, it's so true. So which means in the community is built in. Not just. This is another roman community. This is, like, nationalist. This is, like, we love Rome. Rome has given us a good life. Rome's taking care of us, and Rome is the ultimate. And you have this small, subversive community right smack in the middle of that. That is saying, we serve a different king and we live in a different kingdom that isn't powerful, that doesn't have the military. Our king was crucified and publicly shamed and we believe came out of the tomb he was placed in. And now things are all different. It's all subversive. It's all subversive. And it is. Paul's highlighting that. I'm going to at one point, stop hitting this microphone. Paul is highlighting that journey of Christ to be down and low. That is the glory like it is. The thing that's most compelling and subversive in Jesus is he's the king. He is. When the early church said, jesus is Lord, it was a direct verbal challenge that Jesus is lord, which means Caesar's not. And, yeah, that's what's at play here. [00:15:23] Speaker A: So what stops us or slows us down from humility? Like you guys said earlier, we tell these stories, and we really love the heart that a humble person has, and then we like to kind of balk and stop short of actually taking the steps to live that out ourselves. What is it that stops us from doing that so often? Is it the lack of notoriety? Is it just patience? Humility takes an incredible amount of patience and an understanding that you're not always the hero of every single story, even though that's our tendency. So what is it that slows us down and stops us from humility? [00:16:05] Speaker B: The virtue of humility is nice at your memorial. Maybe if you're an old grandma. She was such a humble grandma, mom. But you rarely hear that about as a leader of a Fortune 500 company. He was so humble. It's seemingly incompatible, I think, with traditional success metrics. And I think this is true for Paul's audience, too. We know what success looks like, especially in a place like Philippi. It's glory, and it's military victory, and it's Caesar worship and it's nationalism. None of that has anything to do with the suffering servant humble Jesus. And so I don't think that's changed. Right? Like, if you want to get to the pinnacle of success, humility is. Is not only not desirable, but it's not necessary. Like, you can. You can climb the ladder, and you don't need humility, and it might actually be more of a liability than it is an asset. [00:17:07] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's totally true. We're in such a, like, self promoted, become an influencer. Everyone should have some kind of, like, a celebrity status. It's just on a spectrum now. It's not if you are or aren't. It's just, like, what level you are. So I think one of the challenges of adapting and living into humility is, like, are you okay with everything else stripped away, who you are in Christ? Are you actually okay with that? And I think most are not. And so we backfill, you know, like, I'm gonna be a follower of Christ, but I need all these other things to mark my identity to actually present value to the people around us. And I'll try to do that in a humble way, which isn't maybe, you know, being quite as egotistical or self centered or narcissistic as everyone else I see around me. But I do need a little bit to get mine and get ahead. Right, right. So. [00:18:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:08] Speaker A: Cause even. Sorry to interrupt, even the stories that we just told, rick Moranis and mother Teresa, you know, a lot of these people that you would put the mark of humility on, I know their stories. They probably have made money before they made the humble view. Right. And so to go along with what you're saying, I can, yeah, well, I just need enough notoriety, and then, sure, I'll be humble, and I'll step away and do the. The righteous thing or whatever. So it almost does always feel like, but I need something out of the deal. Either I need to do this and then get something on the other end, or I need to already have everything made, and then I can step out of the way and be the humble person. [00:18:50] Speaker C: Right. Yeah. [00:18:52] Speaker B: And there's, like. There's an attempt, I think, in all of us to make humility compatible with competitive nature or ambition. Maybe it is compatible. I don't know. I mean, I've been described as ambitious, Ben, I know you've been described as competitive. [00:19:12] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:19:12] Speaker B: Dave, I don't know if you were any of that. There you go. Yeah. But, Ben, how do you deal with, like, a competitive nature and this need to lead from a humble place? Are they compatible? Or is it like, I gotta shut that off in order to step into this? [00:19:26] Speaker A: Yeah, it's funny, there's a humility in team. Right, that no matter how well you compete, you can kind of distribute accolades and credit around to the team and everything like that. But, yeah, often, I think to compete at a really high level, for me, I needed to have a certain level of arrogance, not humility. Like, yeah, I should have the ball right now because I'm the best option. If we want to win, I'm gonna get the ball, and I'm gonna have confidence, then I can be the one that's gonna make the player do the whatever. There's a certain amount of ego involved in that that I think is absolutely necessary to be a great competitor or competitive athlete. Um, and so a lot of times, in my mind, I would just split them. It would be, like, well, arrogant and egotistical in the right way on the floor, and then off of that in the interview afterward, humility. And, you know, passing out credit to everybody else. It's tough for me to put them together in the same moment at the same time. [00:20:24] Speaker B: Right. [00:20:24] Speaker A: And that was kind of the complexity of the Michael Jordan documentary that came out during the pandemic was like, this dude is so absolutely cutthroat. Every practice, every interview, every interaction you have, this guy is trying to get one up on you or win or push you. But there were still these other moments of passing the ball to Steve Kerr at this time. And, yeah, it's hard to answer the question poorly. I don't know how they all go together. I almost always feel like one is the left foot and then one is the right foot. They're not exactly always tied together in every single moment. Right. [00:20:59] Speaker C: I'm thinking of Scotty Scheffler, the golfer who's been on a hot streak. He's won the last couple tournaments, PGA tournaments, and I heard him in an interview at the end of this last tournament, he won, like, how do you stay humble? I don't know if they said humble, but how do you stay grounded or not? Let it go to your head, maybe. And he talked about having a whole community of people that could really care less, that have known him a long time. They aren't on the bandwagon of his fame or whatever. That couldn't care less if Sunday is he's number one or he's number whatever, 85. When he goes home that Sunday night, it's going to be the same meal, it's going to be the same folks hanging out. He is just Scotty there. And there's a simplicity, but I think a powerful simplicity to that, that you can be excellent and confident and really care about mastering your craft and the tools God's given you without that, then taking over, becoming your identity. Right. And there's a humility in releasing the identity part and fully grasping and fully leaning into the craftsmanship of the tools you've been given. That is rare to find. Right? So a lot of unhealthy, and I would say Michael Jordan, like, super unhealthy human being who leveraged his anger, insecurity, rage, control issues to squeeze victories out. And then he's revered for a while and being great, but then on this side of his life, there's very few relationships intact. He seems to be a very unhappy individual. So there's something to that. How do I become masterful without becoming egotistical, be confident without becoming cocky and allowing my identity to be centered in something outside of what I do or what I'm known for? Still being committed to being great at that, because that in and of itself is worship to the Lord. Like, he created us to work and to create as image bearers. So how do we become masterful in that without it letting become our identity? And that's, I think, like what we're seeing in Jesus here in this passage is a, he did not use all of his stuff to his advantage. He laid that down and yet did the job to perfection, to mastery. And there was all of this glory that came in that combination. [00:23:44] Speaker B: That's interesting. You're onto something where there's ego and cockiness and arrogance, but it almost seems like what Paul's doing is he's drawing the contrast between humility and this desire to control, use power, exert force, which is a different thing. Right? And so I do wonder about, how does that apply? Because I immediately think, am I humble or am I arrogant? But here we're seeing Jesus could have exerted force and control and power. He laid that power down. So what is the effect of power versus humility? If maybe for a second, we set aside the idea of we're fighting ego or fighting arrogance or thinking too much of ourselves, what's the power and the control thing? [00:24:29] Speaker C: Yeah, no, that's great. I don't have any well formed thoughts, so I'm happy to workshop it out here with you guys. But power seems to be. Power and money seem to be like the two things we hear most about, the cautionary tales of corrupting our soul. Right? When I am given power, authority, control over others, that has. That is a gateway to destruction of myself and can be used by the enemy for the destruction of others and other people. And then money probably tied to power and the influence that money brings is maybe the other thing. So, yeah, I think it's a great question. Like, what do we see demonstrated in Christ? That was full power, fully leaning into the tool bag that he's given. And I think each of us are given a tool bag by God that are unique and different. And kind of part of our life journey is discovering what tools we've been given and then partnering with God to create. So you don't throw the tool bag out and just say, well, here I am, just a human blob sitting in the dirt, and this is how I worship the Lord because I'm humble. That is an abdicating of the imago de spirit that's been given to you. So you need to channel, you need to develop, you need to go on that journey of mastery in whatever tools you've been given and the path God's put before you. So how do you do that in full, like, using those two tools to full power without it then corrupting to, like, your influence, other people, your influence over your family, and then the corruption of your own, your own soul. That's like, where formation comes in, I think, like, not to, like, take us down a rabbit trail, but, like, for mature Jesus followers, there have to be practices and rhythms in your life and people in your life that help keep you in check. Well, that love you. Well, that know you transparently, that you're actively going to go to with your mess and confession and be received in grace and love. That has to be in the equation. Because if it's just like, wow, I've been given power, I've been given tools, and I can use this. I'll use it for good. I swear. I'll use it for good. You can trust me. Just give me the ring, Frodo. I can use it for good. We know that never works. Like, it has to be accountable, it has to be tempered, has to be seen for what it is with others. And then you build the practices to keep that going forward in our journey. But where I think the christian community, sometimes we either, I think you alluded to, it's either I'm an ego, I'm an egomaniac, or I'm humble. No, those things are not mutually exclusive. In the kingdom of God, you should be confident in the things God's made you to do. So do that well with a humility that is for God's glory, not my own. And those two things constantly keep each other in check all the time. [00:27:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:54] Speaker A: And I can identify with the really binary, extreme piece of that metaphor that either it's humility or it's ego. Either it's all in or all out, because that's a bit of my personality. I've had so many. Sorry, that's not emotion. That's beef jerky. [00:28:14] Speaker C: We're here. [00:28:15] Speaker A: That's beef jerky. We might get to the emotion. [00:28:17] Speaker C: No shame to that. [00:28:21] Speaker A: I have had so many conversations with myself where I've been like, okay, either we're gonna sell the whole thing and move away and try to lead an orphanage somewhere in a remote part of the earth, or I'm gonna try to be the most mega of mega pastors I have ever done. You know, like the in between is. It's not even in between. The right thing is hard for me to go slow enough to discover that and to be spiritually formed. Cause it's easier to just make decisions of. Either I'm gonna go humble, which means I'm not on social media, I'm gonna go completely dark, I'm gonna never talk to these people again, or I'm just gonna build this kingdom under myself. Because I can't help it. I naturally want to go, quote unquote, as. As light side as I can, or just say, you know what? I'm going to be Darth Vader. And, like, let's just do it. Because it's easier to just head down a direction or road. [00:29:21] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think, you know, having walked this road with you, some. Like, some of this is you discovering you. Right. So that's a bit. I mean, other people probably deal with the, you know, the black and white extremes, but, like, that is built into your personality that you've discovered over the last several years you're aware of now, and you've matured in, like, okay, I can feel myself wanting to go all in or blow it up. It's just all in or blow it up. Those are my two options. No, I know I've learned more about myself, and that's kind of this mastery formation maturity that we're all supposed to be in is, like, what are these default mechanisms and reactions in me that I start to learn and pay attention to that then through the lens of Christ, like, what is the humble, correct response for me? Because your response is going to be different than mine, probably is different than Evans is. What makes shared leadership and doing ministry collaboratively really beautiful is when we each are bringing these portions of us and we temper. Right. It's called, like, rounding the sharp corners. You know, like, we're rounding our corners together. Yeah, we need that, and I think that has to be built in. [00:30:39] Speaker A: And how do you experience that, Evan? So I'm competitive. Right. And I can use sports metaphors all day for it. You're very strategically minded, super sharp. Could probably use your. Your brain to manipulate people, and, you know, you could be making money over money over money over whatever. How does it manifest for you to figure out this kind of balance and this progression of life? [00:31:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, for me, shared leadership has been the lifeline away from some of my darker tendencies, which look a lot like me existing in a vacuum of, like, I'm going to do what I want to do, and a tendency on the shadow side of my personality to use people instead of collaborate and exist in shared spaces. And so what we've had here and continue to have here in shared leadership, it forces you out into the open of collaboration. And I think spiritual community. And I could exist with my strategic thoughts in a vacuum. And I'm not saying anyone would want to follow that. They likely wouldn't, but that would be my natural tendency. And I think the opposite of humility, maybe in my personality, is isolation and to figure out what power looks like, not needing to involve any kind of relational community. And I hope I don't go there. I hope I don't live there as a leader, as just a member of the church or whatever. But I think for all of us, we're identifying those places in our personality and in our leadership and in how we exist in our marriages or families and saying, how do we avoid that extreme this way or extreme that way? Either I'm scum and I'm trash, or I'm the best thing God ever gave to the earth. Neither is healthy. Right? And so we're trying to find that. It reminds me of Danielle Strickland did a really great job walking through the acts. One, you'll receive power when the Holy Spirit comes. And she talked about the root of the word dynamic, that the Holy Spirit comes to bring dynamic power, which is knowing when to get loud and when to get soft, how to approach every moment where we have all the power and know when not to use it, and when to know you know and to know when. Oh, no. This is the appropriate time for me to speak up because I have influence, to exercise power, because it's been given to me. But that's not always. And it's not either silence or full volume. There's a dynamic to it. And I think she did a great job talking about that. [00:33:16] Speaker A: But it's better to be loud or completely quiet, is my argument. That's what I'm saying. So is there a way to, like, not to get too utility about this? Is there a way to pressure test our level of humility? Does it look like open handedness? You know, the thought exercise of, what if this piece that you've done for a long time or that you've been really good at, what if that went away tomorrow? What would life be like? Is there even a way to kind of measure or test in our own hearts how we're engaging in humility? [00:33:54] Speaker C: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Practical steps to do that other than what we see in scripture, which is a community of people trying to do this together who are unabashedly honest with one another, confess the shadow sides to one another, and commit to raising up, exalting, drawing out the best of who we are together. This can't be done individually. I really don't think you can just go on a personal quest of humility that will be super short sighted to whatever you interpret humility to be in any given situation. You need people in your life that see you for who you are and love you enough to be honest with you in the journey. I think that's super, super important. And reframing humility is not just like a dissolving of you into nothing, that you just disappear. But humility is not grasping at power, you know, when it's offered to you for power's sake, but also being unabashedly confident in what God's given you to use the tools he's given you and the calling he's given you. Be really confident in that. Like, the spirit is in that, and we all need each other to sort that out. [00:35:27] Speaker B: I like the thought that we don't dissolve into nothing, but we do dissolve into community. [00:35:31] Speaker C: Like. [00:35:32] Speaker B: Like we are fully immersed in something that is not isolated. The hero syndrome, the lone wolf that's out there doing God's work. No, no, no. We're called into a new community. It's not like other communities. It's a new community that Jesus set up. And that, I think, is maybe the only place, like you're saying, where humility is formed. I don't know, outside of that, how we do it to ourselves, I don't know how we find humbleness introspectively. I think it has to be something that comes out of community totally. [00:36:07] Speaker A: Does the opposite happen in extreme introspection, that we just become the center of our own universe anyway? And that's the opposite of humility. It does seem humble to kind of disappear all on your own. But, yeah, when you become extreme introspective, I think the temptation on that side is to make the world revolve around. [00:36:28] Speaker B: You and not to go too far back to Rick Moranis. But the choice to leave fame could feel like a withdrawal. That can feel like an isolation. But what is he withdrawing to? Well, it's to care for and find a richer, deeper relationship with those close to him and family. And so I do think sometimes in pursuit of deeper community, sometimes there can be a pulling away. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, I'm trying to be everybody's friend and keep everybody happy. And there's, you know, 85 people that I feel like I have to make. Sometimes you gotta pull away from that and find a smaller community, and that can feel, like, from the outside like, why are you pulling away? Well, maybe sometimes it's not isolating. It's in search of deeper, richer community. I think we put too much on ourselves that Ben Fleming's gonna be everybody's best friend. And especially in a church world where it's like, oh, you know, you're funny from the stage and people want relationship with you, so then you feel this obligation that you're going to be that relational connection for hundreds of people. Not possible. [00:37:35] Speaker A: Yeah, but that's even part of the thing for me is it's that extreme thing again, like, oh, you view me this way. Either we're going to go all the way in and I am going to try to be everybody's best friend, or I'm going to look at you and go, you're all stupid for trying to talk to me and be my friend to all. So nobody. No friends. [00:37:57] Speaker C: It's hard to be friends with. [00:37:58] Speaker A: I know I am. That's cause I'm so extreme. [00:38:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I like that theme, though. It's coming out. Extremes are really the enemy here. I think so of Jesus, like, humility. He draws us into a much more, like, nuanced and not, like, settling in the middle where we're bland and we never are excitable, but we're not depressed either. So we're just no. Like, there's ups and downs of christian faith, but following Jesus kind of guides. [00:38:29] Speaker C: Us through that, it seems like. No, I think that's totally right. And I think we're living in kind of a reaction time to that hero's model of church where there was one senior pastor, one voice, one charismatic thing that everybody was drawn to and rallied, and that was the voice of God, really, like, treated that way. And we've all seen just the devastation that comes out of that for that person and for the community following that person. Inevitably that all falls apart. So then I've seen. I'm sure you guys have stories of reactions to that being like, we're just doing home churches, just, we're just gonna meet in houses and everyone's a pastor. And, you know, like, it would be like us saying, like, who are we to be doing this podcast? Let's let anybody just kind of line up and roll into the studio, and whatever you have to say is the same. And, like, what you're talking about, not being the extremes, is learning. Like, okay, we have in this room some. Some gifting, some commitment to growing in our gifting that has brought us to this, that we're. We're recording this podcast and putting it out to a group of folks and there's other people that will record things and that'll be great. But for this church, in this moment, we are going to take some leadership, but we're also going to be accountable to one another. That if this turned into the Ben Fleming radio show and everyone started showing up in masses to see Ben, we would all put the brakes on that for Ben and for the good of. Of the church. Right. [00:40:01] Speaker A: So, good morning, everybody, and welcome to the 830 tribe. You're with Ben Fleming here on. [00:40:08] Speaker C: Sorry, he's had that cute. I was just going to say that has been in you a long time. [00:40:14] Speaker B: I did it for a while. [00:40:16] Speaker C: It's funny. Yeah, no, you're so good. [00:40:18] Speaker A: We're going to go ahead and go to line four. Line four. Dave is here with you. What do you got for us? [00:40:23] Speaker B: So my brother was a missionary in Uganda for 15 years or something. I was over with him maybe six years ago, and I was speaking at one of his conferences with a bunch of pastors. And then one of the pastors and leaders that he has over there runs a radio network in Uganda. It goes out all over the nation. And, you know, so part of the thing they would normally do when the guest speaker would come in, they take him and do a radio show with Colin. So I go in there and do a little preaching on air and talk with Pastor Godfrey, and then he opens up the lines for calls all over the nation. And we didn't get a single call. Yeah, oddly enough, no one wanted to talk to me. And I remember just waiting in such painful silence as he's just staring. And he had cell phones, like four cell phones that people would get routed to. And we're just staring at these cell phones and they don't light up. [00:41:23] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh. Sometimes you choose humility and sometimes humility chooses humility. [00:41:29] Speaker B: Visited you that day. It really did. Was upon you. He was speaking in Lugandin in the language. I don't know what he was saying, but every few seconds he'd be like, anyone, anyone, anyone. [00:41:44] Speaker A: That's a good way to frame it. Just by setting up the microphones and hitting record. We believe we have something to say, that at the very least, the exercise of the conversation has a value. [00:41:58] Speaker B: Right. [00:41:59] Speaker A: Even if we don't have all the answers for every single question. But the community that we're existing in right now will allow it to stay healthy. It should, in theory, allow it to stay healthy because we're connected to each other, we care for each other. We hold each other in account and. Is that what you're saying? [00:42:19] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think humility, healthy humility. Christ like humility isn't. Well, I shouldn't have the microphone, actually. No one should have a microphone. That's not. That's not honorable humility. I don't think in the kingdom of God it is. What is the thing I've been given. How do I best steward that, grow in it and have enough of the right folks around me who tell me, like, all right, we're going to keep this in check, you know, and we're not going to let this become your identity. It's not good for you or for us. Yeah, I think that's spot on. [00:42:59] Speaker A: Once the ball is rolling on that, it's easy to tell yourself, well, this is the gift I've been given, and the next step and the next grasp of power is, well, this is clearly my calling. [00:43:10] Speaker B: Right. [00:43:10] Speaker A: It's the gift I've been given. This next thing, this next influence, that's a tough thing to. Once you're telling yourself that story that this is who I am and this is my calling, quote, unquote, it's hard to even listen to the reasonable voices, right, that are around you that would create that community, that would slow that down. It's easy to think, well, shoot, Frodo's offering me this ring, and gosh darn it, I must be here for a reason, right? Then this must be the reason to go. [00:43:39] Speaker C: And this is the discipleship journey, I think, is constantly being confronted with opportunities to take the good that God offers us in our own hands, to use for all kinds of things and justifying it and manipulating it. And that's where you have to have trusted advisors, like wise counsel around anyone dealing with church stuff. I think anyone that's given the honor and responsibility of stewarding Jesus Church has to have around them, like, a really good council to keep that in check. Cause you're right. Like, and I think it shifted in the United States, especially when media began to grow. Cause it used to be we would all be pastors in a small village that we probably grew up in, where we were sent by the church to go to and care for that group of people. And nobody knew who you were. And it didn't matter your chops or how great a sermon you wrote. It's, you're going to steward the church in this area. Cause that's what that needs. As media begins to, you know, come into the picture, then it's like, well, you could draw a pretty big crowd, like, and we could get you. And it's kind of the Billy Graham thing that like, well, what if we just have one guy who goes to all the stadiums and then he leaves the people to go to the churches, you know, and I get it, you know, in a critique on Billy Graham ministry. But, like, that was a shift that never existed before, you know? And we're living in a time where everybody can be their own Billy Graham. Anybody who's got access to the right technology, you can create a platform. And there are, we've talked to churches that are leveraging the content or the personality and then trying to build communities around that, which some of that's innovative. But always the check is like, okay, but where does that cross the line? Where does this slide out of humility into now kind of power and talent and charisma. And that's where you just have to have advisors. You have to have trusted, wise advisors around for all of it. [00:45:48] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think some people should be content creators. That's what they're gifted at, so they're good at. The church at large needs people creating really innovative, good quality content. Huge issue, though, when people like us who are called to be pastoring a local church, look at a content creator, say, that's the goal, that's where we got to get to. We need to stop doing this little pastoring stuff. We're going to keep the role, we're going to keep the title, but really what we need to be is just content creators. They're not the same. It's not the same to create compelling videos online as it is to pastor a community. And I think in our day and age, sometimes those lines get blurred and we think, well, if I'm a good pastor, I eventually get to where I'm just a communicator or a content creator. And I don't know that's the same calling at all. [00:46:39] Speaker C: Totally. [00:46:39] Speaker A: And maybe that's where humility comes in, is it's not that being a content creator is bad. It's, I shouldn't parade around as a pastor when I'm actually wanting and doing the job of a content creator. There's humility in that of, yeah, I can pick up. I can pick up and go and let somebody do the pastoring. Even the phrase local church, right. It implies a level of geography, of people that are going to be within your space, that are living a life that can connect and empathize with yours. You are there to care for them. And if it goes off the rail, not off the rails. But just even out of that sphere of, I'm actually not interested in this at all anymore, then maybe the humility is to pick up and say, I think I'm going to go do another job. I'm going to do another thing. Now, I'm not going to pretend that I'm meant to be in this position in this season. [00:47:36] Speaker C: Sure. Or maybe the greater humility is when you crush it like you have that Sunday. You just crush the sermon. Everyone's in love with it. Or you. So many Sundays, most Sundays for Ben. [00:47:50] Speaker B: Week after week after week. Wow. [00:47:52] Speaker C: Just a string of home runs. So many. No, but when you're in the height of that council around you to say, no, this maybe isn't good for your soul to keep this leverage going. Like, how are you, what are the other parts of your pastoring that you're also leaning into your care, shepherding all of that stuff? Because it takes wisdom to know how to speak humility into each other's lives. [00:48:25] Speaker B: And not making identity only centered around your skill, like your talent. Right. I think it goes back to that idea of what is our vocation broader than just what are we really good at that everybody loves? And if you're. Yeah, maybe if you're a content creator or you're just a conference speaker, that is your identity, and you can live and die by the last talk you gave because you're awesome and whatever, but I think if you have a vocation that is broader than that, that you're called to, it'll kill your soul to live or die by. How well did I speak on Sunday? Well, guess what? My calling to pastor has to do with communicating and speaking that matters. But I don't live and die by how well people responded this past Sunday. It has to be broader than that. [00:49:14] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a piece of it. And then you bring in the personal elements as well. Are you a friend? Are you a husband or a wife or your boyfriend or girlfriend? Are you a father or a mother? Like, there's all these pieces that are probably a little bit more hardware and not software, right. Based on where you find yourself in this moment of your life and ensuring that we understand in our humility that these are necessary pieces that we need to pour our resources and time and thought into so that we're also not just living and dying by this one thing that I did out here, that actually, if you're honest with yourself, sometimes it's more on the periphery than it is in the center. [00:49:54] Speaker B: Yeah, great conversation, guys. We're going to be in Philippians for three more weeks. As we come down to the end of the book, talking about what Paul would say to our church and our communities and in our day, so many things that apply from this wonderful, relatively short letter. It's been really good. We're going to always [email protected]. For our back episodes, you can listen all the way back to Ben. When did we start this thing, like 2018? [00:50:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I think is the time. [00:50:27] Speaker B: Yeah, those back episodes are maybe 17. Behindthemessage.com, our church's website is westsidechurch.org dot. You can catch up on all of our sermons there. We'll see you next time. Ben, did you have something else to say? Okay, bye for now.